tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070355695530434450.post436694018162834779..comments2024-03-14T04:16:20.472-07:00Comments on In Socrates' Wake: Lang -- Students as Learners, Part IIMichael Cholbihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02012523929044363216noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070355695530434450.post-1907376174812550752009-02-17T17:01:00.000-08:002009-02-17T17:01:00.000-08:00I think it's important we not take "epistemology" ...I think it's important we not take "epistemology" here in the narrow philosophers' sense of an explicit theory of truth or justification, etc. What seems clear to me is that students bring attitudes about knowledge — how it's gained, who has it, what value it is, etc. — to their academic work and that these attitudes shape students' efforts and choices. (Perhaps this is better labeled their "ethics of knowledge"?) Of course, that's far from the only thing that influences their efforts and choices, but these attitudes about knowledge and learning are a significant component of the emotional makeup that shapes students' academic habits. The great merit of Perry's developmental scheme is that it offers a picture of how these attitudes shape student performance. <BR/><BR/>For those that are interested in this general topic, the material out there on intentional learning is excellent.Michael Cholbihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02012523929044363216noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070355695530434450.post-10466416237582834022009-02-16T17:00:00.000-08:002009-02-16T17:00:00.000-08:00I often teach first-year students. In fact, I oft...I often teach first-year students. In fact, I often teach in our first-year cross-disciplinary course. I'm not sure that my students conform to this model. I do have the sense that they are very proprietary about their beliefs - as though beliefs were possessions about whom it is no one else's business. This sometimes comes across as relativism but I think it is more a symptom of not recognizing the tight fit between belief and action. There are pretty obvious psychological explanations as well - they have just had their world turned up side down and are clinging on for dear life. I see my job at this stage as getting them used to articulating their beliefs rather than merely laying claim to them. It is very important to get them talking to one another for this purpose - it circumvents the "just tell me what to say on the test" instinct and some times they are more desperate to make themselves understood to one another than to me.Beckohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16074821953202236848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070355695530434450.post-32348125886954500122009-02-15T08:24:00.000-08:002009-02-15T08:24:00.000-08:00Hi Brandon,Thanks for the comment!I have some skep...Hi Brandon,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the comment!<BR/><BR/>I have some skepticism about the "students drop out due to frustrated epistemologies" claim that Lang makes as well. But perhaps he has some data to back the claim up? I'm not sure. <BR/><BR/>Although I've been teaching for a while, I rarely teach freshmen (I usually get them as sophomores in my gen ed class) so I don't have any solid experiences about how students start off. When I get them, they are solidly relativists (of the "this is all a game" type). <BR/><BR/>Are there are any other folks out there who have experiences teaching freshmen? <BR/><BR/>Also, I tend to agree with you that students don't have sophisticated theories of truth in concept. But surely, I think, they have strong intuitions (in the background) on these matters that heavily affect their educational practices -- on this I think I agree with Perry pretty strongly. <BR/><BR/>I also think -- implied in your comment, and I agree with it -- that students have strong intuitions about "what matters and what doesn't" and this heavily affects educational practice as well. So the whole "you don't other me, I won't bother you" is typically stressed in "who the hell needs this gen ed class?" environments. <BR/><BR/>I wonder if that attitude continues in subjects that students think "matter"? If not, I wonder if Perry's developmental model is more accurately a portrayal of such engagements? Clearly I think the "who cares about this subject?" variable plays heavy, and it would be good if Perry (or Lang) could address it to perhaps make it less of a confounding variable in their way of looking at developing ways of engaging with education.Chris Panzahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01656795570624714115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070355695530434450.post-17994598620449526612009-02-14T09:20:00.000-08:002009-02-14T09:20:00.000-08:00I haven't been teaching all that long, but I've ne...I haven't been teaching all that long, but I've never had a class of freshmen who could, on what I know of them, plausibly be characterized as Dualists in Perry's sense. The fresh-out-of-high-school ones (I teach community college so quite a few first-year students are not fresh out of high school) sometimes do want me just to 'pass it along' -- but not because of their theory of truth, but because that's the easiest way for them to have a clear idea from the beginning of what they have to do to pass the course. Students seem to me to tend vaguely relativist from the beginning -- but, again, I don't think it's because they have any sophisticated theory of truth, nor because they think it is just a game. Rather, I think it's because the very basic and inconsistent relativism they use is a sort of way of getting by while minimizing confrontations (a sort of 'don't make trouble with my opinions and I won't make trouble with yours, and we can all be happy' strategy). <BR/><BR/>I am very, very skeptical of the idea that any students drop out because of their view of truth.Brandonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06698839146562734910noreply@blogger.com