tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070355695530434450.post5512753264634983448..comments2024-03-14T04:16:20.472-07:00Comments on In Socrates' Wake: the case(s) for optional attendance?Michael Cholbihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02012523929044363216noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070355695530434450.post-65520140634342864572011-02-17T12:22:29.425-08:002011-02-17T12:22:29.425-08:00David -
Point taken on the vague border between ...David - <br /><br />Point taken on the vague border between the two, especially on this issue (habit). <br /><br />In fact, this partly figures into an earlier point I made somewhere - that there are few classes that we teach where the goals for the course are (or should be) entirely self-contained _in that class_. <br /><br />For ex, when I teach Intro to Phil, it's a gen ed course. Which means that part of the goals for the course are supposed to reach out beyond philosophy (say, developing better reading, writing, critical thinking, and habit formation). Since in ideal form these broader goals are shared by other gen-ed courses the student is supposed to take, it really requires a joint effort to produce them. <br /><br />As such, it would be odd if the student were to prove mastery in that course specifically, for those broader goals. It seems that this is better done by a kind of longer term assessment, say in the senior year or something of that sort, where graduating senior demonstrate that they've progressed in those ways (or, say, by senior level departmental assessment, which aims at the cultivation of a narrower, but still broader set of goals than is contained in any one class).Chris Panzahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01656795570624714115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070355695530434450.post-51202208193485349702011-02-17T11:51:51.680-08:002011-02-17T11:51:51.680-08:00Interestingly, I wandered here by way of an intere...Interestingly, I wandered here by way of an interest in bread. But I can't resist what, to me, is the obvious question. How does the student who misses class pass the course? Admittedly, it's been a L O N G time since I was a college student, but it seems to me if attending class or not is irrelevant to the learning required to get a satisfactory grade then why have the class (or professors) at all? I do not mean to offend. I actually did spend some time teaching in post-secondary education. I agree that college students should be treated like adults, however they should also be held accountable.peghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00364140546919896421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070355695530434450.post-49971350388867833712011-02-17T11:21:10.019-08:002011-02-17T11:21:10.019-08:00Karla, thanks for the details and for sharing your...Karla, thanks for the details and for sharing your syllabi.<br /><br />Chris, I see what you mean about aggregate assessment. I certainly agree that we shouldn't give different assignments for different students or set different standards for those assignments. I'm inclined to say, though, that your argument applies mainly to assignments in which students <i>demonstrate</i> their mastery of a skill/topic. While attendance can help you <i>develop</i> mastery, it does nothing to demonstrate it. Participation would be different, and as John notes, a participation requirement is a de facto attendance requirement. There's a gray area, of course, in which assignments both develop and demonstrate mastery, and I think (with some reservations) that it is best to make those mandatory.david morrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17628941227584383772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070355695530434450.post-7677535541630453722011-02-16T08:58:41.687-08:002011-02-16T08:58:41.687-08:00I also have a strict late arrival policy. If you a...I also have a strict late arrival policy. If you arrive after I call your name, you are considered absent for grading purposes. <br /><br />It may have been useful to note that these policies were developed primarily for introductory level courses, where many of the students are taking the course to fulfill a requirement, not because they love the idea of reading Plato. I don't have much of a problem in upper level courses, though that may be partly due to the expectations set in the introductory level courses.Jim Spencehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00361312076055620893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070355695530434450.post-63193117262041528772011-02-16T07:31:37.312-08:002011-02-16T07:31:37.312-08:00@ David:
"I'm curious how you implement ...@ David:<br /><br />"I'm curious how you implement your mandatory attendance policies. In particular, do penalties kick in with the first absence or is there some number of "free" absences? Do you track excused vs. unexcused absences, and what are your experiences in trying to distinguish between them?"<br /><br />First of all, I want to tell the world (okay, those who are reading this) that I love this blog! So many useful ideas, challenges, arguments every time I visit. <br /><br />Anyway, David, to answer your question, here's what I'm doing these days. By the way, I call attendance "classroom practice". Why? Because I teach Philosophy as an activity, not a subject:<br /><br />I run my courses on a 1,000 point scale. <br /><br />"Classroom Practice" = 200<br /><br />In courses that meet once a week, a student loses 20 points each session missed. In other words, miss 5 sessions, your grades drops a letter. Courses that meet twice a week: 10 points lost each session missed.<br /><br />2 late arrivals or early departures = one absence.<br /><br />No exceptions. None. Not for medical emergencies, funerals, deaths. Nothing. Why? Because what counts as an "emergency" differs from person to person. <br /><br />That's not all, though. If a hard copy of the assignment does not reach me at the beginning of class, on the day it is due, it is considered late. Emailing assignments not allowed. Then, they can only submit it by the next session, or not at all. Late assignments earn a 30% penalty.<br /><br />All this seems strict...and in a certain sense, it is. I hold students to high standards. I hold myself to high standards too. Students frequently tell me my class is the hardest one they have taken so far, in terms of what I expect. But they also frequently report that they learned the most in my class, and that my classes were the most fun. They tell me they cursed my name at points, but that all things considered, they are glad they took the course, and frequently, they tell me the course changed their life. <br /><br />Finally, get this: most students make A's and B's in my courses. <br /><br />I teach intro and general education courses. No higher level courses. If I taught higher level courses, I would probably follow different policies. Maybe.<br /><br />Jim Spence highlights something that I had not touched on in my own posts, in quite the way he does, but I agree wholeheartedly with him:<br /><br />"The primary advantage is that all of the students are on the same page when we have a discussion...So having most of the students present in most of the classes means that (ideally) simplistic positions and objections won't need to be addressed over and over again simply because one vocal student rarely comes to class."<br /><br />That's exactly what used to happen in my classes. Cocky students who thought they knew everything already would simply not attend very often; when they did, all too often they would issue an overly simplistic, and frequently incorrect, position. We all know what that does to a classroom, especially when it comes at you later on in the semester. You AND the students are like, "Really?! Is this really happening? Where was this individual when we covered that?!"<br /><br />Okay. I've written enough. Oh, if you want to see my syllabi (warning: they're not for the feint of heart), have at it. Each one is published on my student blog: http://philosophy-courses.blogspot.com/<br /><br />Thanks, everyone, for the challenges, insights, and clarification. :) KarlaLogica1https://www.blogger.com/profile/12428758070950331976noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070355695530434450.post-55093866178488964492011-02-16T06:46:44.207-08:002011-02-16T06:46:44.207-08:00I'd like to add a few points to the thread. It...I'd like to add a few points to the thread. It has grown substantially since I last looked at it, so I may miss or restate some points that have already been covered, sorry about that. I think I am on the same page as Karla above. <br /><br />I require attendance because I believe it improves the class, because quality participation improves class. I allow several absences for any reason (about two weeks worth) after that I deduct ten points off their final grade for each additional absence. I make it clear at the start of the semester that they can go to Cancun for two weeks if they want, I don't care. If they do and still do well in the course, good for them. But if they get sick and miss another two weeks after they return, they will fail. This approach has two benefits: a) it allows students to make decisions for themselves about the best use of their time and b) I don't need to get involved in sorting out excused and unexcused absences. <br /><br />The primary advantage is that all of the students are on the same page when we have a discussion. In other disciplines this may not be a concern, but it is in philosophy course because the class benefits greatly from discussion and because some stubborn students are so willing to voice untutored opinions. This may benefit the class occasionally, but it is better if it doesn't happen too often. So having most of the students present in most of the classes means that (ideally) simplistic positions and objections won't need to be addressed over and over again simply because one vocal student rarely comes to class. It also means that we share a common vocabulary. I find this important for good discussion, and the problem is not only with technical terms. The longer I teach, the more I realize that I may not even share the same vocabulary as my students, simply because language drifts away from some terms and phrases over time. I say “human nature”, they hear “individual inclination” and have no problem saying things like “It is his human nature to be lazy” I say “free will” and they hear “free choice”, I say “a means to an end” and I get blank stares. Having everyone present as often as possible can substantially improve the class for everyone.Jim Spencehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00361312076055620893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070355695530434450.post-54764230572062140842011-02-15T15:00:06.052-08:002011-02-15T15:00:06.052-08:00Chris: We probably do not have much of a disagree...Chris: We probably do not have much of a disagreement here. That said, one of my learning outcomes (objectives) is that students will learn to construct and evaluate specific arguments in favor of specific conclusions. This requires exposure to arguments and practice in constructing them within the context of a discussion of the issue being explored. I have yet to have a student be successful (A or B) and not be in class for the vast majority of the class meetings. So I think that attendance at least as I teach philosophy, is related to some of my learning outcomes, or at least the attainment thereof.John Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16388418182862297211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070355695530434450.post-80570670093392146422011-02-15T14:20:32.430-08:002011-02-15T14:20:32.430-08:00John,
I'd agree with everything you said in r...John,<br /><br />I'd agree with everything you said in reply to me. I think the participation aspect is crucial in philosophy. <br /><br />Also, I should note that I don't have any problem with saying that a result of requiring attendance is the acquisition of work-related habits. I'm just wary of making it a core part of the reasons we offer when we say why attendance is required, since it is not related to learning outcomes.Chris Panzahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01656795570624714115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070355695530434450.post-61708950868286617802011-02-15T13:44:49.351-08:002011-02-15T13:44:49.351-08:00309: I agree that the work world is changing and t...309: I agree that the work world is changing and that that needs to be taken into account. I teach an intro to philosophy online course, but I do require participation weekly on the discussion board. This accounts for @20% of their final grade. If a student does not participate for two consecutive weeks, I drop them from the course unless they notify me as to why they are not 'there.' I have even begun to require participation online in discussion boards for my face-to-face classes.<br /><br />I also think that most grads do not go immediately into the middle or upper levels of an organization, but start at the entry level where they have to prove themselves. Most entry level jobs that I am aware of require face-to-face interaction with others, or at least some form of interaction. That is one of the things I am trying to teach my students - how best to become successful so that they can achieve their professional goals.<br /><br />Chris: Not my only reason of requiring attendance. I approach philosophy Socratically, so participation is important to the learning process. One cannot participate if one is not there. Even in the example from 309 some form of active participation is essential. <br /><br />Now, I want to go on record as saying that I do not think that attendance has to be mandatory or required. It is what I choose to do. If one can teach a course and students who do not participate in some interactive form are as successful as the ones that do, then great. My experience in 25 years teaching is that students who to not take advantage of interacting with others do not do as well on exams or writing assignments, at least in my courses. By making attendance/participation a part of the grade it gives students an incentive to learn.John Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16388418182862297211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070355695530434450.post-87971642139941335612011-02-15T12:58:41.359-08:002011-02-15T12:58:41.359-08:00Although I agree with John's end-result policy...Although I agree with John's end-result policy, I'm not sure I agree with his reasons for having it. <br /><br />In fact, if the real reason for requiring attendance was to instill non-academic habits for the workplace, I wouldn't require attendance at all, since it would have nothing to do with learning. Then I think you _might_ actually have a situation where (in my comments to ScrewPlato) the imposition of the requirement is arbitrary or capricious (simply in that it doesn't have anything to do with learning outcomes). <br /><br />It may be the case that de facto colleges wind up to be the places where students acquire the habits to show up to work and sit in their cubicles, but that's not stated anywhere in my university's mission statement, nor in my department's stated goals, so I don't think I'd feel comfortable letting it influence my pedagogical decisions. <br /><br />Of course, if those habits can be made out to be academic and also have non-academic application, then I'm all for it.Chris Panzahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01656795570624714115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070355695530434450.post-15550147320451349712011-02-15T10:36:14.956-08:002011-02-15T10:36:14.956-08:00I feel very split on this topic.
Firstly, at leas...I feel very split on this topic. <br />Firstly, at least at an undergraduate level, I think it is part of the teachers job to help students stay on track(midterms right?). While an undergrad I would do my best to read all the material before class. For one of my courses, each class period we had a quiz, which went towards our grade. Not to the extent where if you missed a class you would be doomed but enough to make me read the material twice and not miss a class. Because the teacher gave an incentive to come everyday and be well versed in the material, I put more effort into the class and, amazingly enough, got more out. I feel that this is what good teachers do, remind and help students do well and not procrastinate. <br /><br />Secondly, I feel that if a student doesn't come to class regularly, why are they there? At least in my case much of my tuition was coming out of my savings, so every class was worth quite a bit to me. I doubt that most professors really want to be there and having to force others to be there just seems childish. These students are adults and should be responsible for their own education.<br /><br />Yet again very split on this issue, perhaps a little of both?<br /><br />http://philosorapters.blogspot.com/William Parkhursthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07441198744386150525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070355695530434450.post-7004432559006763452011-02-15T09:58:51.866-08:002011-02-15T09:58:51.866-08:00309 here.
John, I think change is occurring in ma...309 here.<br /><br />John, I think change is occurring in many professional environments that your approach fails to appreciate. Most of the people in my office could do their work effectively from any location where they have a computer, phone, and connection to the internet. And they do; if there's a blizzard and the roads are closed, they simply work from home. "Attendance" isn't necessary for them any longer, because they can get their work done without being present. It's only the lowest-rung workers who have to be present--the ones who handle materials or serve visitors--and my understanding is that this is a general trend in the corporate world. Even in a side job as a entry-level freelance proofreader last year, I only had to be in the office for 1 of about every 20 hours I worked. So it sounds like you're treating your students as though employment outside academia for them means menial labor or low-level office positions. (An approach that may cause offense.)<br /><br />Just something to consider; if your aim is to emulate conditions in "real-world" employment, changing conditions in that environment are relevant.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070355695530434450.post-48275647617271392482011-02-15T09:51:11.931-08:002011-02-15T09:51:11.931-08:00Wow, 34 comments! Maybe we should do a poll on thi...Wow, 34 comments! Maybe we should do a poll on this topic? I'd be very interested in the results...Michael Cholbihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02012523929044363216noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070355695530434450.post-89920987010784493672011-02-15T08:36:24.181-08:002011-02-15T08:36:24.181-08:00I would also like to point out that there are inst...I would also like to point out that there are institutions that do not allow teachers to use attendance as a grading criterion. As I understand it there have been court cases that have determined that a student should have the opportunity to pass the course with an A (or the grade they actually earn without an attendance factor) without attending class sessions because they have paid for the right to take the course and if they can learn the course material without attending class that is their right. Consequently, I have made participation a large part of my grade and in so far as one cannot participate if one is not present I can get thru the back door what the law will not allow thru the front.John Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16388418182862297211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070355695530434450.post-33383558481471047292011-02-15T08:29:31.151-08:002011-02-15T08:29:31.151-08:00I view attendance in class the same way I viewed a...I view attendance in class the same way I viewed attendance in the businesses I worked for. To me, being a student is a job (career if your prefer) the goal of which is to learn crucial skills and acquire knowledge. Employees get evaluated on their attendance as part of their overall performance and can be terminated if they fail to be present when they should be. No one is forcing students to be in my class so if they do not like my policy they are free to leave, just like employees could leave if they did not like working for me. I know that some may object to my treating students as 'workers' and the educational environment as an opportunity to learn life lessons before bad work habits have too negative affect on the course one's life may take. But, I consider it part of my responsibility as an educator to prepare students for the realities of professional life outside of academia where showing up to work when one feels like it is not an option.John Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16388418182862297211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070355695530434450.post-77733933747778384402011-02-15T07:18:45.371-08:002011-02-15T07:18:45.371-08:00I do not mandate attendance in any of my courses, ...I do not mandate attendance in any of my courses, at any level. However, one component of the grade for a course is dependent on work done in class (such as case studies, individual writing assignments, participating in a debate). This component of the grade is usually 25% in an intro class, and 10% in an upper division one. The level of attendance in my courses is high, on balance.Mike Austinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02489700864050607425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070355695530434450.post-30482312158427867542011-02-15T04:20:15.090-08:002011-02-15T04:20:15.090-08:00Ugh. I just wrote a very long reply, and Blogger a...Ugh. I just wrote a very long reply, and Blogger ate it. Grr. As a result, this second try will be short. <br /><br />David - <br /><br />I allow students to miss 2 classes without penalty, as I think this is fair (life happens). However, I also agree that these policies should be mapped onto the demographic makeup of the student body. In my case, I teach at a private school where my students are well off and mostly live on campus. So there's no real reason to build in a more lax attendance policy. If such reasons existed (say, if I taught mostly non-traditional students) I might have a different policy.<br /><br />On aggregate assessment: I can't imagine doing it any other way. When you develop the course learning goals, you are thinking of what you want "the student" to master. Allowing students to opt in/out of different requirements due to their strengths/ weaknesses surely sounds good in principle, but seems practically unworkable (not to mention institutionally questionable). For one, a student might say "I already mastered paper writing" which means they could opt out of the paper. Or: it could mean that because they've taken more classes, you make them write a harder paper, or you hold them to tougher standards for the same grade. Either way, this would be a nightmare for obvious reasons. <br /><br />Cathal<br /><br />I saw Close give that talk many years ago, and to be honest I still have a strong memory of just how much I disagreed with him on many things. It would require a whole post to say how, so I won't here. But I will note that the habits I meant _are_ academic, actually. Also, although I agree that the more fundamental habits are learned in the lower level class, in the higher level class there is a different set to be learned, so I'm not sure the time ever comes when you no longer need to learn habits to succeed. <br /><br />@ScrewPlato<br /><br />In my own case, the first two reasons you give would be covered by my own attendance policy (2 freebie absences). However, this is an argument for a freebie policy, not an argument for non-mandatory attendance. <br /><br />As to the third one - not liking the class - this is not an acceptable reason to miss the class, from the teacher's point of view, the person charged with advancing student learning. I understand not wanting to go to a class you don't like, but from the standpoint of the educator, this is really not relevant at all.Chris Panzahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01656795570624714115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070355695530434450.post-49564741680015981382011-02-14T18:34:25.933-08:002011-02-14T18:34:25.933-08:00Everyone,
I'm curious how you implement your ...Everyone,<br /><br />I'm curious how you implement your mandatory attendance policies. In particular, do penalties kick in with the first absence or is there some number of "free" absences? Do you track excused vs. unexcused absences, and what are your experiences in trying to distinguish between them? (Like Joshua's, my experience is that nothing kills more grandmothers than Spring Break.)<br /> How would a policy like this address the various concerns in this post? "You get <i>n</i> absences for any reason. After that, you lose <i>p</i> points for every absence, regardless of the reason (excepting extended medical emergencies)."<br /><br />Karla,<br /><br />I was interested to read about your class structure and hear your report of its success. I think the need to develop good group rapport, etc. make mandatory attendance a reasonable requirement for that kind of course.<br /><br />I've used group work in various contexts, though rarely as extensively as you do. In one of my current courses, I offer students extra credit for participating in the weekly group sessions. That encourages and rewards participation without penalizing those who choose not to come to class. It has taken some reshuffling of groups as we find out who attends reliably.<br /><br />Chris,<br /><br />You said that course assessment aims at the "aggregate student," not the individual one. I think I have a vaguely Rawlsian attitude about this: I'd prefer to protect some things, such as the responsible students' autonomy to balance one's various responsibilities, even at the expense of maximizing the "aggregate learning" of the class by allowing some irresponsible students to shirk. I don't expect everyone to agree with that approach, of course. It might not be as big an issue on some campuses as others. My students, especially at my old institution, were often working full-time, had kids or other family responsibilities, etc. I knew they sometimes had good reason to miss class and didn't want to penalize them for it.<br /><br />Cathal,<br /><br />Thanks for the link to the paper. I look forward to reading it.david morrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17628941227584383772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070355695530434450.post-3648150778412318912011-02-14T12:32:17.562-08:002011-02-14T12:32:17.562-08:00I judge my own success by how much students learn....I judge my own success by how much students learn. Society judges my success as a professor by the same measure. If students are not there, they are not learning from me. I have no chance to be effective with them (for that portion of the course they miss). I need to ensure conditions that will allow me to be as effective as possible, especially in a political climate in which the general public feels our profession is not doing a good job. <br /><br /> I don't mandate attendance; I do count participation as part of the final grade. (Of course, if a student is not present, there is no participation.) I don't "force" student to come to class. They simply do not earn that portion of their participation grade when they don't show up. I don't force them to take exams or turn in their papers either. i simply give them the grade they've earned.Jonathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09371893596402673898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070355695530434450.post-17046632667228435152011-02-14T08:06:01.281-08:002011-02-14T08:06:01.281-08:00Daryl Close had a terrific article – Fair Grades –...Daryl Close had a terrific article – Fair Grades – in Teaching Philosophy Dec. 2009 on the subject of what should and should not be graded, including attendance. A pre-print is available on-line here ... http://userpages.bright.net/~dclose/fair-grades-typescript.pdf<br /><br />I am conflicted on the issue. I think I tend to agree with Daryl that attendance should ideally not be graded, but I tend to agree with CP that there are non-academic skills (such as showing up) that we can (and indeed must) encourage in students, especially students who lack basic skills and/or are new to the demands of college. <br /><br />As a result of Daryl's article I have removed the attendance requirement from my upper-level courses, but I have (so far) kept it in my intro courses. - CathalCathal Woodshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10153066565799827806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070355695530434450.post-87466075128543870892011-02-14T05:57:50.441-08:002011-02-14T05:57:50.441-08:00To those who argue that grading attendance is the ...To those who argue that grading attendance is the equivalent to paying for work or that even adults face consequences:<br /><br />The attendance requirement is coercive in the sense that it tries to change the default or baseline set of consequences, from "learn material presented in class or not" to "lose GPA or not." The real question is whether the baseline consequences are sufficient or whether it is virtuous to supplement them. I suspect this depends a bit on the students you're working with (elite or community college, public or private, etc.) In that sense, there may be no generic answer to this question.<br /><br />But in defense of my early response, not requiring attendance is a kind of pedagogical technique, too: it's intended to teach students to be self-motivating and to think of themselves as responsible for their own education. If a student can't generate the internal drive to succeed or curiosity regarding the subject matter, that student is unlikely to succeed in other adult pursuits. They don't tend to succeed in my classes.<br /><br />There's also a selfish reason: I don't have to field excuse e-mails. Perhaps it's reasonable to expect that grandmothers will die, but why do so many die right before and after Spring Break?Joshua A. Millerhttp://anotherpanacea.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070355695530434450.post-21363305234343052252011-02-13T21:30:13.857-08:002011-02-13T21:30:13.857-08:00309 here.
It seems I was unclear; I'm not a t...309 here.<br /><br />It seems I was unclear; I'm not a teacher, just a recent grad. :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070355695530434450.post-79141571218071827622011-02-13T20:47:49.632-08:002011-02-13T20:47:49.632-08:00@ Anonymous:
"By the way, I really like the ...@ Anonymous:<br /><br />"By the way, I really like the touch of having students write down their answers to your questions before talking in groups. That would give someone like me--someone who is extremely shy in person and has to have a thought articulated in her head before she can speak it--a better chance of figuring out what she wants to say or ask before the discussion's over."<br /><br />Same here--I am not someone who speaks well right off the top of her head. Well worn paths, yes. To get it well worn though, I have to work very, very hard. And it takes a while. The shy students tend to do pretty well in my classes too. I think that's because in that second stage, wherein the small groups are discussing things before they debut their findings with the larger class, shy students get a chance to work stuff out with a couple other individuals. Then, when I call on groups, to give a summary, I have the group own the items covered in that group. At that stage, no one is to take credit for a particular item. They must say "In our group some of us concluded X, and some concluded Y, and here are the reasons". <br /><br />Then when we discuss as a class, the students that maybe would not have spoken up in a regular class have run their ideas by someone already, shored up their confidence, and seem more willing and able to submit their own idea, and own it, to the larger class.<br /><br />No worries about the mandatory vs. heavy weighted distinction. It's not that anyone messed it up. Rather I wanted to make sure anyone reading my contributions here understood what meaning I was going with.<br /><br />Do you use group work in your classes?<br /><br />:) KarlaLogica1https://www.blogger.com/profile/12428758070950331976noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070355695530434450.post-6870089399245165852011-02-13T18:46:11.519-08:002011-02-13T18:46:11.519-08:00Anon 309 again.
Have to say I disagree with SP ab...Anon 309 again.<br /><br />Have to say I disagree with SP about that last reason for skipping class. Now, if it'd be obvious to me as a classmate that SP hates the class, *I* would wish SP weren't there. But it's not a good reason for SP to skip. You don't have to like it for it to be valuable (story of my life). Don't like how the prof responds when you speak? Practice writing your objections & arguments down.<br /><br />Karla: I see how erratic attendance would be problematic given the way you structure your class sessions.<br /><br />And if that structure would mask the non-participation of frequent skippers (you didn't say anything about this, I know), then I'd be all for heavily-weighted attendance in your case. ...I'm still bitter about a project in which one group-mate contributed absolutely nothing yet received the same (high) grade as the three of us who did the work. (And that was 7 years ago. I feel pretty strongly about free riders.) If the group work in your classes can't mask individual non-participation, I'd neither defend nor oppose heavily-weighted attendance.<br /><br />Group work like you describe was only an occasional feature in my classes; discussions tended to be whole-class, and in that case having a body of classmates who only spoke when directly called upon made speaking up harder. (I am not, you may surmise, one of those who happen to be comfortable speaking in front of groups, however verbose I'm being now.)<br /><br />By the way, I really like the touch of having students write down their answers to your questions before talking in groups. That would give someone like me--someone who is extremely shy in person and has to have a thought articulated in her head before she can speak it--a better chance of figuring out what she wants to say or ask before the discussion's over.<br /><br />For the record, though, the alpha males didn't exactly scare me; they annoyed me. I thought them loud, arrogant *s who could use a lesson in using their ears as well as their mouths. ;)<br /><br />As to the "mandatory" vs "heavily-weighted" distinction, I apologize if I have mixed the terms up. I have to remind myself that most students don't think about grades like I did (from my own perspective, if there were points to be lost, it was mandatory--I may have taken my grades a little too seriously).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070355695530434450.post-48477983148117949292011-02-13T17:12:20.418-08:002011-02-13T17:12:20.418-08:00@ Anonymous 309:
I cannot speak for others, and I...@ Anonymous 309:<br /><br />I cannot speak for others, and I definitely hope my posts have not been taken that way. I can only speak for my courses. I use a lot of group work in my classes. Not outside-of-class group work, but on-the-spot group work. <br /><br />Here's what I tend to do, almost each and every class:<br /><br />1. Post an opening question or two on the whiteboard (while I write the agenda, and concept maps and such that we'll use later on, on the board)<br /><br />2. Students are to answer those in their notebooks<br /><br />3. Then they get into groups of 3, 4 at the most, and discuss. A "scribe" takes basic notes, to insure that everyone contributes, and all students are armed with a list of "Socrates questions" that they are to employ when the conversation seems to halt<br /><br />4. Then I take summaries of answers & discussions from a couple groups.<br /><br />5. Then we discuss the issue, concept, or problem as a class.<br /><br />This way, everyone participates. This way, the classroom discussions are not dominated by people who happen to be more comfortable speaking in front of groups. Also, some of the shy students' really good ideas can be shared as part of the groups' summary, in the event that the shy person is not ready to "own" their contribution, or share it out loud in front of the class.<br /><br />Students tell me constantly that this is the first class they felt comfortable speaking in. I hear this from a lot of girls, especially. I don't have to tell any of you that philosophy is dominated by men. And that the especially competitive males in each class can scare the crap out of shyer students.<br /><br />So that's what I do, and that's why my classes don't go well when students don't show up.<br /><br />Also, I think there is a distinction to be made between "mandatory" attendance and "heavily weighed" attendance. <br /><br />Mandatory ... "compulsorily: in a manner that cannot be evaded" ... <br /><br />They can evade attending. Easily. They'll lose points if they do, though. Not a LOT...but enough so that in a 16 week class that meets once a week, 3 or 4 absences puts them out of A territory if those absences occur on days when work is due.<br /><br />I think that's reasonable. Students do really well in my classes...maybe my high standards play a part? I think that they do.<br /><br />:) KarlaLogica1https://www.blogger.com/profile/12428758070950331976noreply@blogger.com