tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070355695530434450.post1411932423203621543..comments2024-03-14T04:16:20.472-07:00Comments on In Socrates' Wake: Anonymity in Online ForumsMichael Cholbihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02012523929044363216noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070355695530434450.post-45272352772231745952007-07-20T00:18:00.000-07:002007-07-20T00:18:00.000-07:00I think you are certainly right, they are a differ...I think you are certainly right, they are a different kettle of fish and even among them there is some variety. So for example the distance learning courses at Massey had excellent quality discussion on the boards (Not much of it, but what was there was good) and you got a real sense of the students enthusiasm for the course. A large part of that I suspect was the student profile which was for the most part 30+ coming back either after retirement or after work to do something they found stimulating. They tended to put a lot of work into the assignments because they were doing it because it was interesting to them, and they were typically only doing one course a semester.<BR/><BR/>Here though our distance learning students are usually already based in a lab working full time and doing the degree to get a promotion, the students are therefore often close to full time on top of their job and so are stressed.<BR/><BR/>Each scenario calls for different strategies.<BR/><BR/>In regards to your question did you mean this:<BR/><BR/>"1. These courses come with a course book (effectively the lectures) which I had to write. In the course book each week I had exercises and discussion points, I reposted these on the boards on a weekly basis which usually stimulated some discussion. In the new course I am teaching, the equivalent of these notes is online lectures, these are linked to the discussion boards so that there are areas where if you answer the question your answer is automatically sent over to the board."<BR/><BR/>Basically I structure the lectures to incorporate the material I would have used for the tutorials or in class discussions. I either ask the students to think about the material on their own, or to discuss it on the forum board or both. The "Learning Technologists" here then add question boxes which when the students fill these in their answers are automatically posted to the forums. Likewise they can do some fun things with multi-choice questions, building in interactivity and answer suggestions depending on the student's answers.<BR/><BR/>Did that answer your question or is it too early in the morning for me to get your question?David Hunterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10511387997239132302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070355695530434450.post-34549754896386338892007-07-19T17:30:00.000-07:002007-07-19T17:30:00.000-07:00David,My guess is that total distance courses are ...David,<BR/><BR/>My guess is that total distance courses are just a completely different animal from a hybrid one. In my case, my students all know each other to some degree just in virtue of being students at my school, given its small size (1400). So I think even with the anonymity, they still feel like they are "getting to know one another" in a way that can be then applied to one's immediate social environment in a way that yours cannot, given the total distance. At the very least, thoughts like "wow, there are students at DU think that way?" At a small school, that's real information about your day to day social climate. On the other hand, "wow, there are people in the world who think that way?" is a great deal more distant and so socially diluted.<BR/><BR/>I'm interested in hearing more about your online assignment in #1. Can you give more detail on it?Chris Panzahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01656795570624714115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070355695530434450.post-72701017672477877792007-07-15T00:16:00.000-07:002007-07-15T00:16:00.000-07:00Sorry Chris (Must remember to check poster's name!...Sorry Chris (Must remember to check poster's name! before posting)<BR/><BR/>I think the best explanation for the 10% participation in the Massey case was simply that it wasn't compulsory, so many students didn't bother posting. Probably about 50% of students posted occasionally, but only about 10% posted very frequently. <BR/><BR/>It could be cultural I guess, although being a distance learning course our students were from all over the world, in one course I had a vet in England, and a logger in Canada...<BR/><BR/>With the other course, which is in Northern Ireland, so somewhat different culture, the problem is that (I think) the course is way to assessment heavy, it is only a six week course and they have 4 major assignments as part of it. So looking over the discussion boards things start well in the first week, but by the second week, the only thing happening on the boards is people panicking about the assignments, no actual discussion.<BR/>I'm hoping to change that, so any tips are very welcome.<BR/><BR/>I think you do have a point on the anonymity point perhaps it would help students disassociate themselves from the ideas they are discussing. I do wonder though whether in distance learning courses a sort of anonymity isn't already achieved in that the students are unlikely to ever meet each other. What do you think?<BR/><BR/>Two things I did do that seemed to boost participation somewhat were:<BR/>1. These courses come with a course book (effectively the lectures) which I had to write. In the course book each week I had exercises and discussion points, I reposted these on the boards on a weekly basis which usually stimulated some discussion. In the new course I am teaching, the equivalent of these notes is online lectures, these are linked to the discussion boards so that there are areas where if you answer the question your answer is automatically sent over to the board.<BR/>2. Whenever a student asked me a question via email or phone I would with their permission repost it and my answer on the board. I got a lot of questions via phone because Massey University made it free for distance learning students to call lecturers in their office. It was quite interesting, you would get a call from a painter during his lunch break to discuss Mill's harm principle...David Hunterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10511387997239132302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070355695530434450.post-28880408902557480682007-07-14T15:20:00.000-07:002007-07-14T15:20:00.000-07:00Hi David,(This is Chris, btw, not Adam!) I'm curio...Hi David,<BR/><BR/>(This is Chris, btw, not Adam!) <BR/><BR/>I'm curious about your 10% participation rate, simply because it just doesn't square with my own experience. I'd estimate, off the top of my head (we had hard stats for the paper we wrote, but it's not in front of me) that about 30% of students participated very often, and maybe half of that 30% extremely often. Of the remaining, 50% posted around the amount that was required, and 20% posted little if ever. This is a far cry from 10% participation -- I'm curious what the differentiating factor here might be. A cultural difference?<BR/><BR/>On anonymity: You're right that if there's a conflict of interest (like on an investment forum), then that makes perfect sense. But I'm not sold on the point that within a pedagogical context a person should be required to "own (up?)" their own views. I would change this view if the views in question were very hostile or aimed at attacking a person personally. But I don't allow such posts on the board (and rarely do they pop up). Usually when things move in that direction, a small amount of nudging from me gets things back on track. That said, I'm not sure a person should have to "own" their own critical comments. Part of the point is that students should learn to think of criticism and arguments as detached from the speakers who utter them -- to be able to analyze the arguments/points logically in a detached way. My guess is that forcing people to own them, when there's nothing "personal" about them, seems to undercut that message. I could be wrong here, but that's my intuition about it. What do you think?<BR/><BR/>I entirely agree with your last point -- one we made in our article. If the instructor "heads" the VF, discussion dies. One of the "fun" aspects of it is that it is student run, though instructor moderated.Chris Panzahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01656795570624714115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070355695530434450.post-16668492553572032192007-07-14T11:43:00.000-07:002007-07-14T11:43:00.000-07:00Hi Adam, interesting post. I've used online forums...Hi Adam, interesting post. I've used online forums as part of teaching for the last couple of years. My first encounter with them was as part of some distance learning courses I gave (Massey University, where I previously worked is the distance learning university of New Zealand about 66% of our students were distance learning). In that course they weren't anonymous, nor were they compulsory. The majority of the students read them, about 10% contributed with any frequency.<BR/><BR/>More recently I have been involved in a course where again it was not anonymous but posting was compulsory. Again, about 10% of the students contributed with any frequency.<BR/><BR/>In regards to anonymity I can see how this would cut both ways. In my non-professional life I participate on and moderate for an NZ based independent property investment discussion forum www.propertytalk.com (its a long story) there we allow our users to be anonymous, but insist if they make critical comments about other users or companies that they sign that post with their full name. We think this does two things, reveal conflicts of interest (important given the commercial context) and mean that they own their negative comments, which hopefully makes them at least a bit more thoughtful about saying them.<BR/><BR/>Much of what you say about the advantages and disadvantages of anonymity rings true in that context as well, down to getting the same requests "who the hell is Poormastery, he bugs the hell out of me"<BR/><BR/>I haven't tried anonymity (I don't know if it is possible within my School's Virtual Learning environment) but I would be inclined to go with anonymity with the option of not being anonymous, or revealing your identity if you choose, that way the Plato's honours lovers can get their fix.<BR/><BR/>In regards to Michael's questions about encouraging participation, I think there is plenty to say. I'll limit myself to one related suggestion. In some courses if I have wanted to get the ball rolling I have invented a false student who I use to ask questions and prompt discussion. I basically work on the principle that questions from the lecturer, especially if they are someone you have never met, and probably never will, often shut down rather than open up the discussion. (No one wants to look stupid)David Hunterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10511387997239132302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070355695530434450.post-39545376017791211532007-07-13T16:48:00.000-07:002007-07-13T16:48:00.000-07:00Michael,Good questions. In the years I've been usi...Michael,<BR/><BR/>Good questions. <BR/><BR/>In the years I've been using VF (probably about 10, in various incarnations ranging from ancient MSN and Yahoo! message boards to the newer Invision stuff) I've only deleted one post due to a serious incivility problem, and verbally disciplined two students about egregious incivility. I certainly agree that anonymity raises the temperature, to be sure. But I'm very stern in the beginning about maximum temperature levels, so to speak. This has always worked for me, simply making it very clear up front what you will and won't accept (basically drawing the line at personal attacks, same as my rules in the seated discussion). I do tend to give students a good amount of latitude, though. I try to give the heat the benefit of the doubt (so that I don't start to function as a kind of oppressor of the board's content) until it gets bad (which is not that often). I wonder if the experiences of others are similar? <BR/><BR/>On the required question: I think you are dead on. If you make it optional, just forget about it, especially in a required course. They won't do it. But that's the same way it would be for any assignment. If I don't assign papers, they won't write them either! So I make it required (15% of total grade in intro to ethics, actually -- a mixture between quantitative and quantitative approaches to discern the grade, nothing complicated though). I think the key here is to not treat it as a "tack on" feature to the course that isn't _really_ a serious part of the class. It's not an extra to me -- it functions as a serious part of their performance evaluation within the class. By the way, I don't think the fact that it's required decreases the quality; I get some good required papers, some bad ones, some mediocre ones, and some never turn one in. Same with the VF (though I find that more enjoy this than the other assignments). In fact I always get some students who practically live on the board, making well over 100 posts in a semester. And I always get a few who never post and lose 15% of their final grade because of it. Just the nature of assignments, I suppose. We actually spend quite a bit of time talking about this aspect (required or not, how to effectively grade the VF) in the article, if I remember right. <BR/><BR/>Still, I've found that year after year, my students (in ethics) all cite the board as one of their favorite parts of the course. For me personally, I'd actually find a class without a VF to be somewhat odd, at this point. I'm too used to being in continual contact with them and their thinking to go back to a merely seated discussion format!Chris Panzahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01656795570624714115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8070355695530434450.post-47181815885415623532007-07-13T15:22:00.000-07:002007-07-13T15:22:00.000-07:00Chris - Good questions all. I've had mixed result...Chris - Good questions all. I've had mixed results on the whole with VF, I'd have to say. <BR/><BR/>On the anonymity question, I can appreciate the benefits you mention, and I've found the overarching issue regarding VF is student motivation. I can see how anonymity might motivate some students to participate (the meek, the intellectually timid) but discourage others (Plato's honor lovers, the ones who need recognition). I guess I'd also worry that anonymity might indirectly undermine norms of civility and reasoned discourse, giving those with strong views an excuse to rip other students and generally fail to engage in fruitful dialogue.<BR/><BR/>But you raise questions that interest me, since I've found that if I make participation in VF optional, few students take advantage of it, but if I make it required, the quality of the VF discussion is low (short cursory posts, etc.) What to do?Michael Cholbihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08731652309512159498noreply@blogger.com